LS1 swaps.

[SyTyJedi]

Re: LS1 swaps.

Exhaust is going to be interesting. I'm using 6.0L truck manifolds flipped forward. I'm going to build a crossover off the drivers side and bring the passenger side back up to the T4 flange where the turbo will be mounted. With the S&P kit putting the AC so high and me wanting to retain fenderwells, I may mount the turbo low or even in front of of engine like so many LS1 peeps are doing. Just gotta keep it above the pan so I can have the gravity effect for the oil return from the turbo. As for the rest of the exhaust - a friend of mine is a master fabricator at a popular chopper builder's shop and I am going to have him help with the downpipe and welding my collectors. My goal is to get it to mate up with the ATR exhaust at first, and then maybe look at a 4" turbo-back exhaust after that. Not sure if the downpipe can be tucked inside the frame or not.

Do what Todd says if you are doing this swap. The parts from TurboTime are NICE. Get the C5 accessory brackets. They are a must. Without them, the driver's side manifold hits the alternator. If you want to do the truck manifolds, you can't use the AC in the stock location anyway, even if you notch the frame. That area is for exhaust only LOL.

I'm keeping the AC, I'm with Todd on that one - It's just not an option to delete. I want this truck to be a DRIVER that I can take out at any time without any worries.

 

['JustDreamin']

Re: LS1 swaps.

Hey guys....

I know Turbotime is working on the oilpan. Any speculation on when it might be available? Any details on it at this time?

I plan on doing this swap on my latest acquisition (a 1999 Bravada) but won't be able to have it be apart for months on end waiting for parts. It'll need to be apart for minimal time (I expect a month or two is all I can manage before the Wife starts riding me about "when will it be done?") so I'm working on collecting all of the parts that I know I'll need now (and probably for the next couple of months) and hope to be swapping motors in late spring (if everything goes well). So far I have a firing solution (and even some backup plans) for everything except headers, and I've got some ideas on what to do there, just nothing definite yet.

'JustDreamin'

 

[Tydriver]

Re: LS1 swaps.

Hey guys....

I know Turbotime is working on the oilpan. Any speculation on when it might be available? Any details on it at this time?
'JustDreamin'

The oil pan is currently in its 'prototyping' phase.. Hoping to nail it on the 1st attempt since its being copied off the stock pan we had modified. This oddly enough has turned into a gi-normous headache. Once the pan is tacked together, plan is for it to be sent here, and for me to trial fit it with the Turbotime mounts that we did on my truck and if all fits, then its going back for final welding. At this point then it should be a no brainer to just call up and order one, and know that its all gonna fit as it was prototyped on a Typhoon, by a list member. Eric and Jeff will both tell you that I have been a HUGE PITA on quality and appearance of these parts and that I want the stuff to fit RIGHT.. I hate hackjob parts...

The last internal engine related part needed will be the oil pickup tube.. I need to see what the pans gonna look like before we can finalize that. Yes these are custom parts, and they arent cheap, but in comparison to having spent $6000-8000+ on a "built" 4.3L motor, I still stand by my original statement that the LS1 will be cheaper.. I KNOW FOR SURE its gonna be cheaper for the guys buying the parts than it was for me to help prototype them (and Eric and JSM as well)..

I cant say enough about the help these two guys have given, its been a LONG project, and seriously if I just wanted to throw the LS1 in, it would have been done a long time ago. However my desire to have it to appear stock (as if GM had designed the setup themselves) and to help the community by offering a kit with Turbotime and JSM has led to the lengthy delays (I refuse to be part of something that looks HACKED together..). In retrospect I wish I wouldnt have gotten involved in offering a kit for this conversion but you live and learn right ? Anyhow, 'nuff said on that crap.. ETA for sheetmetal oil pan we are hoping is sometime around or just after Thanksgiving for the trial fit... We should hopefully know more very soon..

 

[Tydriver]

Re: LS1 swaps.

I plan on doing this swap on my latest acquisition (a 1999 Bravada)

'JustDreamin'

Not to be a d!ckhead or anything but NO GUARANTEES any of these products are going to fit a 2nd gen truck. They simply werent proto'd for that application and I do believe there was a frame change with the 2nd Gen trucks...

 

[PPI Typhoon]

Re: LS1 swaps.

Ok, so I see the point about the A/C, and yes, I plan to keep the A/C as well. (I'm in Arizona.......you figure it out, lol) but where do you plan on mounting a turbo??

I wonder if my T76 would work..... hmmmm...

 

['JustDreamin']

Re: LS1 swaps.

Not to be a d!ckhead or anything but NO GUARANTEES any of these products are going to fit a 2nd gen truck. They simply werent proto'd for that application and I do believe there was a frame change with the 2nd Gen trucks...

Todd...

Understand about the 1st gen / 2nd gen deal. I too am uncertain as to how different the front frame sections are. Not sure if the front axle is in the same spot or not or if the mounting points for the engine are in exactly the same spot. One of the changes that I have heard is that the frame rails have a slightly larger opening between them, but I cannot confirm this change or even quantify it (3/4" or 3"? who knows). There's really only one good way to find out. And I'm willing to be the guinea pig and see if it fits, since its my idea, and I understand I do so at my own risk. I'm just hoping that all of the parts are close enough that they either fit or fit with minor adjustments. If its a lost cause fitment-wise, I'll see what I can do to recoupe my investment, which could include selling them back to Eric (at 50% or something to make it attractive.) But ultimately, I hope not to go anywhere near there.

You guys are talking about a sheetmetal pan. Am I correct in assuming that its a steel pan? If so, that'd be great! If I need to modify it, I can do it in steel, but don't have wire, gas, or skills to MIG aluminum (and don't want to try and learn on something as important as a cast aluminum oil pan.) Please advise if you can. Also, any idea as to whether a stroker crank will fit? How about windage tray? Pump pickup will be interesting, I'm sure. I expect that a Truck pickup tube can be modified fairly easily to fit, but that's just my guess.


Lastly, THANK YOU Todd for taking this on and being diligent about having the parts fit. I'm sure JS & Turbotime wouldn't be willing sell parts that look cobbled together, so thanks for taking the time to test fit stuff & verify that it fits properly (at least in the 1st gen platform). I'm sure that this has slowed your build down, not sure how badly (only you guys know for certain) but I for one want to say THANK YOU. I am sure your efforts are appreciated by a number of other guys too. Keep wrenching on the Ty and I'm sure very soon you'll have that it out blazing all of the tires at will.

I'd love to offer something useful in addition to my thanks and an attaboy (like help), but if I remember correctly you're in the midwest, and I'm in the midatlantic region, which means its a bit too long a drive to go turn wrenches on a weekend. But, if there's anything I can do to help things along (short of sending you a check or winning lottery numbers), please let me know. I'm a mechanical engineer, and I've got some CAD, CNC, and machining experience (and a nice machine shop at my disposal here at work), if those are of any use.

'JustDreamin'

 

[canadian]

Re: LS1 swaps.

I believe that the oil pan is a structural part of the whole setup, so it won't be something flimsy like the stock SyTy pan, but a little thicker. These three will get it right. It may take some time, but it'll get done. I'm leaning towards an LSx swap myself, but figure I'll wait until all this stuff is figured out before I make a real paperweight out of my truck. Right now it's half way there...

 

['JustDreamin']

Re: LS1 swaps.

The factory pan is structural. However, I don't think its all that critical. After all, how many 800+hp big block chevy's get by without the 2 bolts from transmission to the oilpan? And I'm sure it adds to the rigidity of the bottom end a little bit, but it really isn't all that critical.

One of the biggest reasons the factory did it as a casting with all of the ribs and bracing and such in place is to help reduce NVH (noise, vibration, & harmonics). GM is picky about that kind of thing, and I'm not. I'm not too concerned about a little noise. It'll add character. Yeah, thats it, character.

'JustDreamin'

 

[PPI Typhoon]

Re: LS1 swaps.

About the A/C. I'm not opposed to notching the frame, but I see the only real obstacle is the steering arm mount.

Pardon the crappy photoshop, but what if you modified the bracket to do this?

According to this picture.......http://www.turbols6.com/albums/album01/aan.jpg , It should be enough to clear with the frame notched.

Just a thought. Feedback is welcome. I just dont' see how you're going to get a turbo in there with the A/C up like that. Not to mention the cost of the brackets @ $1100 w/acc?? That's a lot of money.

 

[Tydriver]

Re: LS1 swaps.

I dont understand where the $1100 brackets are coming from or what you are referring to ??????

Notching the frame isnt a bad option, just not where I wanted to go with it. The idler arm thingy tho.. Well, I didnt want to go there either, it wouldnt be a bad option to upgrade to rack and pinion at that point and eliminate the entire idler arm setup.. But thats another entire headache..

 

[PPI Typhoon]

Re: LS1 swaps.

I dont understand where the $1100 brackets are coming from or what you are referring to ??????

Notching the frame isnt a bad option, just not where I wanted to go with it. The idler arm thingy tho.. Well, I didnt want to go there either, it wouldnt be a bad option to upgrade to rack and pinion at that point and eliminate the entire idler arm setup.. But thats another entire headache..

I thought the kit for the AC relocate is like $520, plus all the need to buy the accessories, which have been in the $500 range, but I guess that also includes the actual accessories. Can you reuse the truck accessories on the corvette brackets??

Thanks for the word on the frame. I am not against the notching as long as it's done correctly. I'll leave that in the hands of my capable fabricator.

 

[SyTyJedi]

Re: LS1 swaps.

$1100 brackets? Whoa nelly!

I'm planning on reusing accessories with the different brackets from the C5. One is like $43, I forget how much the others are.

 

['JustDreamin']

Re: LS1 swaps.

I'm planning on reusing accessories with the different brackets from the C5.

Just make sure everything will work together.

For example, I believe that the C5 power steering pump and the f-body pump and the truck pump all have different GM part numbers, implying they are different. I do not know whether the f-body or truck pumps will mount up to the C5 bracket or not. Maybe I'll pose that question on LS1Tech.com and see what kind of answers I get (would be good to know). Would be really nice if one or other fit up poperly, because f-body and truck pumps are relatively abundant, C5 ones are hard to find.

And take water pumps, as a second example. I'm pretty sure that the f-body and C5 share a common pump. But the truck pump is different, longer by a significant margin, and in many instances is set up for a mechanical fan (which wouldnt work because the fan would be located where the radiator and condenser is.). And to add to the madness, the C6 LS2 pump is signficantly shorter than the C5 LS1 pump (I believe its close to 2", which is more space for an electric fan). The LS2 & C5 LS1 pumps are functional interchanges, just the pulley shape and pump shaft length change. But you can't just pick up the LS2 pump anywhere. And they're like $150 new.

I think alternators should mount up, but haven't verified that they do. If you go from a small case car unit to a large case truck unit, you may need a longer belt, and there may be other fitment issues. Either way, you'll have to check it out for yourself.

Just wanted to make sure you guys knew that everything may not interchange like we'd prefer.

'JustDreamin'

 

[sparkwire]

Re: LS1 swaps.

I'm looking at my invoice from gm parts for the c-5 bracket the power sterring pump, reservior, hose,cap bolts ect, no alternator, dicount price $396.84 the bolts and bs stuff is expensive,but hard to find used. the bracket for the alt. psp is 66.56 list, 49.92 discounted, they go higher than that on ebay!! the alternator is expensive 300+ new, 100-? ebay.the psp is 260.70 list, 195.93 discounted. I sold the f body acc. i had on ebay for $375, so all this stuff is in high demand. I would like to see a set up that mounts the ds alt. in closer and the ps a/c in closer to make more room for the turbo setup, there's some nice ones on ls1tech, in the hybyrd section, but there all one offs. I think I have my wiring all worked out, I was going to have stainless works do my exhaust system, first price was 1000+ for headers 1000+ for the rest of system that went to 12/12 then when it came time to take it in it went to $3000 + so i declined. I have never made headers but now there's 5-8" of snow on the ground, so i got till may to experiment. I have the front half of a ty frame( that I have fom the front diff i bought),looking for a block and heads, cheap, that i can use for a mock up, I bought a set of TT motor mounts( same dimensions as mine!!) If I mount these in the frame half,and build the headers on them, I can leave the truck together to get all the measurements from. I did pime the engine and cranked it over, it had oil pressure and oil on the rockers after a few cranks,at least i know my oil pickup is working, Didn't fire it thought i might set something on fire!! Looks like( tt typhoon) in california is making fast progress, he should be running soon, The f body acc. and the c5 acc. will not enterchange. THANKS

 

['JustDreamin']

Re: LS1 swaps.

The f body acc. and the c5 acc. will not enterchange. THANKS

Just to make sure I follow what you are saying completely, did you try fitting the f-body pump to the C5 bracket and it doesn't fit (which I'd like verification of), or is that you can't mix C5 & f-body pieces.

'JustDreamin'

 

[Tydriver]

Re: LS1 swaps.

Just to make sure I follow what you are saying completely, did you try fitting the f-body pump to the C5 bracket and it doesn't fit (which I'd like verification of), or is that you can't mix C5 & f-body pieces.

'JustDreamin'

In order to clear our application, you can ONLY use C5 stuff.. Truck and Fbody stuff doesnt interchange with C5 stuff. Yes you need to purchase ONLY C5 stuff. Not sure about Fbody and Truck stuff interchanging between themselves as we cannot use them..

Reason for this is location on the front of the block and depth that it protrudes FROM the block itself.

C5 is really only option unless you want to hack away at the frame..

 

['JustDreamin']

Re: LS1 swaps.

C5 is really only option unless you want to hack away at the frame..

I understand that the C5 layout is the only way to fly. I follow that. Don't need to convince me otherwise.

My question was this: Does the F-body P/S pump fit on the C5 bracket, since it sounded like Sparkwire may have tried that, and F-body pumps are pretty easy to find used.

The reason I ask, is I've been keeping an eye out for good used C5 access drive parts and they don't change hands all that often. And when they do, they're often sold as a complete engine package (which is overpriced and has limited potential due to the minimal amount of overbore allowed).

'JustDreamin'

 

[Tydriver]

Re: LS1 swaps.

I understand that the C5 layout is the only way to fly. I follow that. Don't need to convince me otherwise.

My question was this: Does the F-body P/S pump fit on the C5 bracket, since it sounded like Sparkwire may have tried that, and F-body pumps are pretty easy to find used.

The reason I ask, is I've been keeping an eye out for good used C5 access drive parts and they don't change hands all that often. And when they do, they're often sold as a complete engine package (which is overpriced and has limited potential due to the minimal amount of overbore allowed).

'JustDreamin'

NO. As previously mentioned, the Fbody, Vette and Truck accessories all have different protrusion depths from the block. Meaning even if you COULD some how get it to bolt in place, the pulleys wont align correctly with the belts. Sorry. I tried to clarify that earlier, and yes C5 accessories are NOT cheap.

Then again, look around and see what a ' BUILT ' 4.3L is being sold for. I am STILL convinced that a complete 400hp LS6 motor can be had cheaper and installed in a SyTy than purchasing an allegedly ' BUILT ' 4.3L and praying it stays together when running 20+ psi of boost to make similiar hp #'s with alot less boost on the LS1 motor.. Its unfortunate because thats what our trucks came with, but the Gen3/LS1/2/6/7 market is just a stronger market and therefore parts are signifcantly cheaper to come by.

 

['JustDreamin']

Re: LS1 swaps.

NO. As previously mentioned, the Fbody, Vette and Truck accessories all have different protrusion depths from the block. Meaning even if you COULD some how get it to bolt in place, the pulleys wont align correctly with the belts. Sorry. I tried to clarify that earlier, and yes C5 accessories are NOT cheap.

Like I said earlier, just looking to see what potential options there are. I've even heard of people using the F-body stuff and re-locating the alternator to a custom up top bracket. But that seems like more work than I'd like.

I seem to recall reading on LS1Tech that the F-body pump doesn't fit in the cutout provided on the C5 bracket. What I was trying to ask is whether my recollection was correct or not. I'll assume from our going 'round and 'round that I'm correct, it doesn't fit in the bracket.

Then again, look around and see what a ' BUILT ' 4.3L is being sold for. I am STILL convinced that a complete 400hp LS6 motor can be had cheaper and installed in a SyTy than purchasing an allegedly ' BUILT ' 4.3L and praying it stays together when running 20+ psi of boost to make similiar hp #'s with alot less boost on the LS1 motor.. Its unfortunate because thats what our trucks came with, but the Gen3/LS1/2/6/7 market is just a stronger market and therefore parts are signifcantly cheaper to come by.

My situation doesn't allow me to consider a "built" 4.3l. I've got a 1999 truck, which uses the MPFI. Sadly, those late model trucks don't have replaceable injectors, they use what GM calls a "spider". And there is no upgrade available. So pretty much you're limited to about 300 to 330hp max on the motor. And that's figuring on pushing the fuel pressure way up and pushing the duty cyle on the injectors much harder than it should be pushed. The EFI system just can't supply enough fuel. SO, in the quest for more power, I need to add the 2 missing cylinders and doing it with GM's wonder motor seems to be the only solution. So, I'm going to do the LSx motor, just trying to avoid spending boatloads of money on things that are expected. Like AC, power steering, and an alternator. I'd much rather spend the extra money on a cam, or high ratio rockers, fresh springs, head porting, LS6 or FAST intake, 408 stroker kit & machine work, transmission upgrades, wheels, tires, or something like that. Ultimately, I want the most bang for my buck (cause I'm kinda cheap at times).

'JustDreamin'

 

[canadian]

Re: LS1 swaps.

it also depends on what you plan on keeping. a/c, p/s, etc.