Starter gear clearance

4C FED

4C FED

Absolutum Dominium
OK so I bought the following starter: CVR/ProTorque 5323 and tried to install it today.
Note: I also have the B&M flexplate.

The starter gear rubs on the back of the flexplate. In other words the starter is positioned to far aft and when it retreats to the non-start position it is still in contact with the flexplate.

Anyone else run into this?

On a side note to this; I asked a question about how the weight on the flexplate should be positioned.
Weight on the block side or on the tranny side?
I installed my flexplate with the weight on the block side.

For a sanity check, which is the right way, again?

Thanks,

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Rick
Sy#458
Galt, CA

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: 4C FED on 2001-11-25 23:22 ]</font>
 
myclone

myclone

Donating Member
Rick,

Yep, the "weight" goes towards the block if its the one that is around one of the TC bolt holes. If you had it the wrong way it would keep the other two bolt bosses on the TC from being flush with the flex plate..

Im not familiar with the starter you have. Where did ya get it? If it is something that is a prob with just the B&M flex plate then bout all I can think of is putting a couple of shims between the flex plate and crank.

I think its PAW who sells shims for just such an emergency for the one piece rear main cranks. Shimming the flywheel "out" is the only solution I can think of to move the flywheel away from the bendix.

I'll poke around in my PAW catalog and see if I can come up with the shims. I know someone has em I just cant remember who....

HTH..
 
4C FED

4C FED

Absolutum Dominium
The starter is the one listed on the www.sytyauthority page.
I bought it from Jeg's.
I'd try to return it but I think I've already owned it for 90 days.

Let me know what you find about the shims.

And how much clearance should I have between the 2?
I know thye flexplate does indeed flex. Will it move more back toward the starter during accel or decel?

Thanks guys,
 
myclone

myclone

Donating Member
Ive dug through the PAW catalog and cant find squatt.. Mighta been a GM parts catalog I saw them in... Hell, I cant remember. Im betting a trans person/shop could get em or know where to find em..

As for the clearance... Never really checked myself.. An educated guess would be 1/8th inch would be more than enough. The flex plate is only gonna move the amount that the thrust bearing will allow plus maybe a tad more due to it "wobbling" a little as it turns. Thats my guess..

Damn... now ya got me wonderin where I saw those shims.. Thats gonna bother me till I find em again..
 
4C FED

4C FED

Absolutum Dominium
After perusing the Jeg's and Summit catalogs, I found that some starters have/include shim plates that push the starter motor away from its mounting block effectively adding space where I need it.
These starters were specifically listed for 90* V6's.
I think this is what I need to cure my problem.
So I emailed CVR to see if they have such an item.
Guess I'll just have to wait/see.
 
myclone

myclone

Donating Member
Hmmm.. Lemme see if I understand as I mighta been on the wrong track the whole time.. I was thinking it wouldnt engauge and hitting the starter side of the fly wheel.

Hypothetical situation here... Imagine being able to look right at the back of the eng/fly wheel as if the tranny wasnt there.

When you crank the eng does the bendix(the gear) on the starter engage the fly wheel ok? As in it doesnt hit the back of the fly wheel, no "weird" noises, etc? If so the shims to move it down will prolly be enough. If the bendix is too close to even engauge then you're gonna prolly need lotsa shims AND better bolts. The bolts that usually come with the lower priced mini starters arent even graded (CHEAPY stuff). Tiltons come with grade 5 bolts (at least they did ~5 years ago).

I got 2 shims that are approx .020" with my mini starter but didnt have to use em. If you want em I can throw them in an envolope and send em to ya if you want em. The're just hangin in the garage collecting dust. Cost ya a beer and/or a hand shake some day..

HTH..
 
4C FED

4C FED

Absolutum Dominium
Thanks, I really appreciate the offer.
Actually I have those 2 shims that came with the starter to shim for correct pinion engagement.
Those adjust for how deep the the starter gear rides in the ring gear.
I don't have a problem there.

My starter actually needs to be pushed forward towards the front of the motor.
Here is a pic of what I need. http://www.csiperformance.com/pics/startershims.jpg

It's the odd shaped one with 3 holes in it.
The one for mine would be different, but you get the idea.

If these people don't make one, I might just have to make my own or pony up for one of the Tilton's or CSI's that have these shims.
 
myclone

myclone

Donating Member
Im with ya now... Yep, ya need to shim the starter toward the front of the eng or shim the flywheel toward the trans.

Prolly a WHOLE lot easier to move the starter... :grin:

Tiltons are over kill IMO on our low comp motors. Wayyyy expensive too. I got a cheapy from PAW (~140.00) and it works fine. Used em before and never had one fail. If I was messin with a 14 to 1 rat motor then Id prolly do a Tilton.. Just MO though..



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: myclone on 2001-11-26 19:19 ]</font>
 
Syclone#892

Syclone#892

Member
Nice starter you bought 4C FED, its actually a Nippendenso and those rock, I would not buy any other starter except for the ones that come on Tahoes and such (mini-starter you can buy almost anywhere, have one on my Sy since we had it laying around and I did not want to or have the money to buy the ND one yet). My dad is a starter and alternator rebuilder and he says the ND is the way to go they last forever and there is only one part that usually goes (forgot which one) and its easy to fix, all other mini-starters like the CSI my dad says are cheaply made and they are made in a foreign country (once again can't remember).
Now to your problem the only thing that comes to mind is was there or is there a shim between the flexplate and the crank, what I mean when you took of the flexplate originally did it go crank-shim-flexplate-bolt or no shim at all. The reason I mention this is that my work just did an engine on a '97 Chevy truck and it had a shim between the crank and the flexplate. Do you have the resources to try a different starter and see if it makes a difference, (possibly old one) if a different starter does not work I would lean towards the flexplate shim. Well I hope my ramblings have helped you out some and if not sorry.
 
4C FED

4C FED

Absolutum Dominium
I don't recall seeing a shim on the crank, but it's been a long time since I tore it down, stuff's moved around, anything is possible at this point.

I'd hate to have to take the flexplate off. I've Loctited (red) the bolts on and it'll be a real bitch to get them off.

I have the stock starter still.
I was just to lazy and frustrated to get back underneath to see if it would work.

Thanks for your help.

Assuming I do get/make a shim for the starter or wind up installing one on the crank, what kind of clearance I should have?
 
myclone

myclone

Donating Member
Rick,

Are you talking about how much clearance you should have between the starter and fly wheel when the bendix is not engaged or how much you should have between the bendix/fly wheel when it IS engaged?

The info below is assuming your talking about how much clearance/engagement you need with it engaged since youre gonna move the starter away from the fly wheel..

When I put a mini starter on I just grab the bendix(gear thingy) with my fingers and work it out to where its engaged on the fly wheel like it would be if I was cranking the eng.

I look to see how far it engages. If the bendix is engaging 3/4 of the width of the fly wheel or more then its been good to go for me. Thats MO though. That was on high comp engines too. Never fragged a fly wheel with that thinking either. Prolly get ppl that will howl with dissagreement but its worked for me every time.

Our low comp engines will prolly tolerate a little less engagement and be fine. Myclones starter grabs 3/4 of the fly wheel and hasnt given me a minutes trouble. Now that I said that it'll crap out in the next 24 hrs... :roll:

As far as how "deep" the bendix teeth should be in the fly wheel teeth IMO .060" between the "crown" of the teeth and the corresponding valley of the fly wheel is pretty good IMO. I go by how it sounds when I crank the eng too. If it makes ANY noise when I crank the eng then I mess with adding/removing shims till it gets quiet. Kinda un-scientific but it has worked for me many times..

HTH...
 
Syclone#892

Syclone#892

Member
I was looking in the Jegs book and noticed those shims for the starter you were talking about and maybe you need one like that. I will ask my dad about it when he gets home and then let you know. As far as the clearance goes I am not sure what it should be, my dad is the starter guy so I have just done what he has told me to do. I also go by the sound it makes when starting. I agree with myclone, I would try his idea out and see how it works. As for the shim, there should be some starter rebuilding place around that you could take your starter to and tell them what you need and see if they have anything. Well hopefully you will get this thing running soon I want to here some kills stories from you.
 
4C FED

4C FED

Absolutum Dominium
Thanks, I pirated some 1/8" aluminum plate stock from work today.

I'm going to make a template and cut my own.
 
Syclone#892

Syclone#892

Member
Ok I talked with my dad and he said that whenever he rebuilt a mini-starter like yours or the Tilton style that they never had a shim and he does not know where you could get one. He was thinking that possibly the flywheel was on backwards but after looking at a flexplate from a sbc 400 the weight was towards the block on that also so his only other theory is, wrong flexplate? I am stumped on this one, What was the part # for the flexplate and does it match the one listed on B&M's website(bmracing.com), could you tell me how the flexplate looks the way you have it now. What I mean is where the converter bolts to is that flat so the converter sits flush with the flexplate or will the bolts sit flat on the flexplate and the converter goes in the divit on the flexplate. Well if my Sy wasn't 10 miles away in storage I sure would be tearing it apart to see what way the flexplate goes on mine. Well I am out of ideas and sorry I couldn't be of much help.
 
myclone

myclone

Donating Member
Hmmm... Summin aint right.... What sized flywheel did ya get?? 163 tooth or 156(I think...)?

That aint gonna work....
 
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