Propane injection

[smeagol]

Some peeps know I've been working towards trying Propane injection on my Sy, so I figured I'd post to the board about it. The IPO kit was pushed a bit ago, but I liked the sound of this other kit better, plus it was tested by Buick owners, who I can relate to more.

www.onlygoodstuff.com is where i got it. Really slick kit, designed by Jay Carter, who's big on the Buick scene, and basically started the alcohol injection craze in Buicks. This was the kicker for me to get this system, since I trust what he does on turbo cars.

Here's some pics of my kit in the Sy: www.chitownsyty.com/bg/pics/propain/

Here's the lowdown of Propane
High octane value - 118-120 I believe, users have run similar boost on alcohol injection as propane injection so far.
injected in gaseous form (atomization isn't an issue)
cheap - I paid $4.65 for my tank to be filled up
should last long (Buick testers have gone 3-4 months on a fill)
will give you more HP headroom -if you are running out of injector, the propane will allow you to make more power. For example, the 50's are good for ~600hp in a V6. With propane it may be possible to make 700+hp, i'm not sure of the extent, to tell you the truth.

Benefits over alcohol (some proven, some conjecture, some opinions)
-turn on point isn't as noticeable
-Easier to tune is really the main benefit it sounds like. With too much alcohol, bog motor, miss, run slower. Running too much propane doesn't seem to make the motor bog/miss.
- Propane reads fine on a wideband 02 sensor, running nearly a point leaner than gasoline.
- Atomization isn't an issue, and therefore nozzle placement isn't as crucial. I'm injecting propane at my driver's side inner fenderwell, where the intercooler pipe comes up.

I've only run my system once so far, as my tank pressure was down (which is a downside of the system, in cold weather the pressure will drop and you need to have a bottle heater).

I'll post more of my results & thoughts on the matter as I do more testing, hopefully getting out to the track with this setup before it starts snowing around here.

 

[PiP]

Thanks for the post Brian.
Hank Hill would be proud. :wink:

I have seen Viper's running the propane (with Nitrous) and it seems to be very stable.

What are you doing as far as tuning for the changes when you run on propane?

Thanks,
PiP

 

[smeagol]

I'll be monitoring via Datamaster, with a wideband 02 installed, and EGT gauge in the pillar.

I would like to run 20-22psi on pump gas with the propane, with no knock. I'll monitor the AFR to make sure it is safe, and will tentatively shoot for 12:1. The propane will probably require a *bit* leaner ratio, but 12:1 is safe for now. EGT's will be monitored as well, probably looking for the 1100-1200° F range, after the turbo. Timing - will be kept at 93 octane levels for now, may tweak that a bit once I get the fueling dialed in, and learn more about the propane.

From what people have said with the propane, it's very flexible, and once you are injecting enough propane for your conditions, going overboard doesn't seem to slow you down that much. I'll probably start by running 100-120psi of propane, and will most likely have to start leaning my fueling out. I don't anticipate having to make TOO many changes to the propane configuration (pressure/duty cycle settings).

I'm just forming a game plan right now, hoping to start running & tuning with it more in the next week.

 

[canadian]

From their website (for those too lazy to go over there)

Want to run more boost on pump gas? Pushing the limits of your fuel system?

Then this kit is for you!

Includes:


Custom bottle bracket for easy tank removal.
DOT Approved 5lb Propane Tank
High flow/High pressure custom propane regulator with pressure in/pressure out gauges Adjustable from 0-400 PSI).
Custom high flow propane solenoid.
-4 Steel braided teflon line.
Injection fitting can be mounted in a hard tube or through an intercooler hose.
Blow down setup for emergency venting.
5 jets of varying size included for maximum tuneability.
PRO-pain Command Center (PPCC) allows adjustability of system activation, boost level, solenoid pulse width and overboost warning from inside the cockpit!
LED indicators for system power as well as system activation.
Master on/off switch powers the system down as well.
PPCC is prewired with a plug and play harness for the solenoid.
All necessary equipment for installation
Installation can be accomplished in an hour to an hour and a half with common hand tools.

Product is intended for off-road use only

$570.00

 

[bdubb]

also, they gave BG enough line in the kit to run it from the back in the bed of the syclone to the engine. didnt have to cut, ad, or buy anything. worked out prefect.

 

[Zac]

IF you are going to the track for testing, Let me know. I'd like to come and check it out some time.

Sounds like a nice kit.

Zac

 

[just a 6]

Here is a cheaper kit

http://www.importpoweronline.com/propane.html

From their website (for those too lazy to go over there)

Want to run more boost on pump gas? Pushing the limits of your fuel system?

Then this kit is for you!

Includes:


Custom bottle bracket for easy tank removal.
DOT Approved 5lb Propane Tank
High flow/High pressure custom propane regulator with pressure in/pressure out gauges Adjustable from 0-400 PSI).
Custom high flow propane solenoid.
-4 Steel braided teflon line.
Injection fitting can be mounted in a hard tube or through an intercooler hose.
Blow down setup for emergency venting.
5 jets of varying size included for maximum tuneability.
PRO-pain Command Center (PPCC) allows adjustability of system activation, boost level, solenoid pulse width and overboost warning from inside the cockpit!
LED indicators for system power as well as system activation.
Master on/off switch powers the system down as well.
PPCC is prewired with a plug and play harness for the solenoid.
All necessary equipment for installation
Installation can be accomplished in an hour to an hour and a half with common hand tools.

Product is intended for off-road use only

$570.00

 

[Sy#26]

Track testing???

Track testing???

What track & when? I'd like to get an honest-to-goodness time slip on mine before I blow this (third) engine.

Barry - Sy#26
Bangor, MI

 

[bdubb]

Here is a cheaper kit

http://www.importpoweronline.com/propane.html

From their website (for those too lazy to go over there)

Want to run more boost on pump gas? Pushing the limits of your fuel system?

Then this kit is for you!

Includes:


Custom bottle bracket for easy tank removal.
DOT Approved 5lb Propane Tank
High flow/High pressure custom propane regulator with pressure in/pressure out gauges Adjustable from 0-400 PSI).
Custom high flow propane solenoid.
-4 Steel braided teflon line.
Injection fitting can be mounted in a hard tube or through an intercooler hose.
Blow down setup for emergency venting.
5 jets of varying size included for maximum tuneability.
PRO-pain Command Center (PPCC) allows adjustability of system activation, boost level, solenoid pulse width and overboost warning from inside the cockpit!
LED indicators for system power as well as system activation.
Master on/off switch powers the system down as well.
PPCC is prewired with a plug and play harness for the solenoid.
All necessary equipment for installation
Installation can be accomplished in an hour to an hour and a half with common hand tools.

Product is intended for off-road use only

$570.00

you get what you pay for.

 

[jwaller]

WTF does BW know about anything. why is he allowed to post in the tech section, or at all for that matter? :fist:

thats like letting BG change your spark plugs. or potter drive your car/truck. who would be crazy enough????? :banghead:

you thought potter could fly..all he can do is hop...curbs that is.. :angel:

 

[just a 6]

Could you please explaine to this stupid swede what you meen. We are talking about $270 differens here, why is it so much better and is it worth $270 ????

you get what you pay for.

 

[myclone]

WTF does BW know about anything. why is he allowed to post in the tech section, or at all for that matter? :fist:

thats like letting BG change your spark plugs. or potter drive your car/truck. who would be crazy enough????? :banghead:

you thought potter could fly..all he can do is hop...curbs that is.. :angel:

and he calls me names over the PA at the track.. Hes a turd..

 

[smeagol]

Could you please explaine to this stupid swede what you meen. We are talking about $270 differens here, why is it so much better and is it worth $270 ????

you get what you pay for.

You get a tank & mount (not a big deal, but it adds up)
You get steel braided teflon line, rather than rubber hose - this is a biggie in my book. I'm not going to run rubber line the length of my truck with high pressure propane in it. AN fittings & such isn't cheap. That right there is probably $100.
The nozzle in the OGS kit is easy to mount, no tapping, you can even put it through silicone or nomex connectors if you don't want to drill into intercoolers or pipes.
In-cab controller, for arming the kit, adjusting turn on point, and the biggest feature, an adjustable duty cycle solenoid. So instead of just tuning pressure, you can adjust the solenoid's duty cycle.
The solenoid & regulator are custom pieces, not off a shelf, for propane, and the regulator has a larger range.
OGS will be offering the remote gauge as an option, and will probably have a tank heater system in the future too.

I think the IPO kit is fine, and works, but I like the parts & features of the OGS setup better.

So in my opinion, you do get what you pay for.

 

[leroy]

I hope to be experimenting with an IPO kit soon. I like your game plan Brian. We're starting with a 91 octane chip. I'm thinking 18-20psi and can probably lean it out a little in the f77 table (above the turn on point) and advance the timing in the same area. We need to get some baseline runs first.

Jim

 

[smeagol]

Yep, i was thinking the same thing.

One more thing I may do, is watch the MAT levels during propane shots. Does it drop down to XX degrees every time the propane kicks in ?

If so, we may be able to put in some coded safety calibration stuff. Like boost is higher at that temperature, timing is higher at that colder temp. If we run out of propane, the MAT value is higher, and we are at low boost, low timing. Trick is to do the fueling that way.. may have to make it so we'd be at base boost (15psi in my setup) if the propane failed, and then set the fueling so it leans out at above 15psi only.

I'm just trying to cover all bases, make it as foolproof as possible.

 

[leroy]

From the limited data I've seen, MAT's don't seem to drop that much. I definitely agree with the concept though. It would suck to suddenly go lean and have additional timing. It might be a good time to play with the esc attack and decay rate also.

Jim

 

[typhoonzz]

Glad someone knows how to tune...
Lord knows I'd blow the truck up without ya jim

 

[smeagol]

Just ran the truck some more tonight. I'm not doing hardcore tuning yet, making custom chips for it with wideband 02 logs.. just running the propane to make sure all is safe, it's working well, what configuration works well.

data:
my truck runs cold, too cold Like 140-150 degrees. Anyways, intake temps were in the 60s tonight, hitting 20psi with propane, and they will rise up a couple of degrees during a 20-80mph blast. So as Jim said, the propane isn't having a huge effect intake temps. My 02's are showing really rich numbers, 980-1000mv. I'm running the same fueling I have been running in regular non-propane tune still, with street level timing (14-15 degrees). I have a new bottle heater, running about 120psi propane, with it turning on at like 6psi or so. Heater works well though, when i started the truck, the pressure was at 90psi, and i can raise it to 130psi pretty easily.

Downsides: I'm getting some knock retard, but I think it's mainly ignition, as I'll get it part throttle, low boost, and I never had that in the past. Iridiums may be getting old... they've been in for almost a year. Just pulled the driver's side plugs to have a look. Gapped tight, like .030", have some residue yellow/orange. I will probably toss some new UR6's in and see how it responds. The truck was only having minor retard anyways, but I would like to eliminate all of it, especially the way it's being run now - rich, lots of propane, little timing advance. Felt real strong, the runs that i made with little retard. I am worried that I need a stronger ignition system, but only time will tell. Best run of the night was from a roll at 20mph or so, and I started getting wheelspin and going sideways when i hit full boost... pretty impressive. Felt lots stronger at 20psi than the typical 15psi that I run, and it's not even close to being tuned yet.

So, need to replace plugs, and see if that helps my retard issues.

 

[rainmaker]

Smeagie;

The only thing that's going to help your retard issues is a lobotomy.

Waller;

:fist:

Dubb;

I wanna go to HAWAII!!

 

[93 TY 2185]

Is this your WBo2 display?

I'm just finishing up the DIY WB from scratch and ready to build the display.
I know some are using a modified version of the ultimate to work with DataMaster.
I am going to use this on more than just my Ty.

Wade Segrest