Propane injection
- Thread starter smeagol
- Start date
GEN3Typhoon
New member
Why?
Why?
Ok.. so I paid about 375 bucks for a set of 84# injectors.. I was going to a speed pro anyway.. Propane seems like just another thing to keep up with.
Are you guys just doing this as continuing effort to increase performance on a stock ECU?
If that is the case I understand .. as the FAST, etc. are expensive.. just seems like a lot of stuff to keep up with.. bottle pressure, full bottle, etc.
Why?
Ok.. so I paid about 375 bucks for a set of 84# injectors.. I was going to a speed pro anyway.. Propane seems like just another thing to keep up with.
Are you guys just doing this as continuing effort to increase performance on a stock ECU?
If that is the case I understand .. as the FAST, etc. are expensive.. just seems like a lot of stuff to keep up with.. bottle pressure, full bottle, etc.
leroy
Donating Member
Hi Nick,
I think it's a way of reducing the need for higher octane fuel in most cases. It's also a way of adding fuel if your injectors are at their limits. Some people just like a challenge also. 8)
Have you thought about running the 84# injectors with the stock ecu? You could have your ecm modded. It could be a lot cheaper than the speedpro/fast, and can be interfaced with a wideband.
Jim
I think it's a way of reducing the need for higher octane fuel in most cases. It's also a way of adding fuel if your injectors are at their limits. Some people just like a challenge also. 8)
Have you thought about running the 84# injectors with the stock ecu? You could have your ecm modded. It could be a lot cheaper than the speedpro/fast, and can be interfaced with a wideband.
Jim
Has nothing to do with what ECU you are running, If I had FAST, AEM, DFI, whatever, I'd still try running it. It does have to do with fuel systems for some people, but not with me.
For me, it's all about running high boost on pump gas. The propane should allow for 20-24psi of boost on 93 octane. I'd be in kill mode full time, no losing races and having excuses about running low boost on pump gas.
I'd rather worry about the bottle pressure and all that, than worry about continually changing the boost level & tune every time I throw race gas in the truck. I'll run it in one state, no matter if I'm on the street or at the track. Race gas is expensive, and in a Syclone, you have to have more than 1/2 tank to race with it, really annoying. If you go to the track and have problems, or forced to quit, or only make a single pass, or maybe 2... that money has just been wasted.
I was planning water/alky injection before, but the propane is a better solution IMO (that's my thoughts so far, that may change).
The tank pressure is a PITA, but that's the reason I got a remote gauge, and a bottle heater. I should be able to monitor it easily. I'll be mounting a knock gauge LED soon, so I'll be able to tell if I'm getting significant knock retard as well.
Is it for everyone ? Hell no. Alky, propane, something to raise the effective, is what I like though. Tooling with the boost control, always tweaking BS is what I'd like to get away from, once I'm dialed in. I have enough to worry about, getting a launch situated, making sure all looks good on a datalog, and that the truck is running ok.
For me, it's all about running high boost on pump gas. The propane should allow for 20-24psi of boost on 93 octane. I'd be in kill mode full time, no losing races and having excuses about running low boost on pump gas.
I'd rather worry about the bottle pressure and all that, than worry about continually changing the boost level & tune every time I throw race gas in the truck. I'll run it in one state, no matter if I'm on the street or at the track. Race gas is expensive, and in a Syclone, you have to have more than 1/2 tank to race with it, really annoying. If you go to the track and have problems, or forced to quit, or only make a single pass, or maybe 2... that money has just been wasted.
I was planning water/alky injection before, but the propane is a better solution IMO (that's my thoughts so far, that may change).
The tank pressure is a PITA, but that's the reason I got a remote gauge, and a bottle heater. I should be able to monitor it easily. I'll be mounting a knock gauge LED soon, so I'll be able to tell if I'm getting significant knock retard as well.
Is it for everyone ? Hell no. Alky, propane, something to raise the effective, is what I like though. Tooling with the boost control, always tweaking BS is what I'd like to get away from, once I'm dialed in. I have enough to worry about, getting a launch situated, making sure all looks good on a datalog, and that the truck is running ok.
GEN3Typhoon
New member
Ahh.. I can understand that then.
I can see the whole pump gas angle of it.. not considering that.. I have that big blue drum of VP sitting in front of my truck so you would think I would have thought of that...
I am not a fan of water injection at all.. but this seems like good technology.. pretty interested to see your results.
I don't drive either of my cars everyday so I most of time around town and such I will have C16 in it anyway.
Thanks for the info.. I will of course continue to read up on your progress...
Also Brian.. Kerr told me he talked to you... small world.
I can see the whole pump gas angle of it.. not considering that.. I have that big blue drum of VP sitting in front of my truck so you would think I would have thought of that...
I am not a fan of water injection at all.. but this seems like good technology.. pretty interested to see your results.
I don't drive either of my cars everyday so I most of time around town and such I will have C16 in it anyway.
Thanks for the info.. I will of course continue to read up on your progress...
Also Brian.. Kerr told me he talked to you... small world.
Propane or meth/water
Propane or meth/water
My goal has been the same as Brian's - max performance w/o any special prep - race gas, etc. Been running 1:1 methanol/water @ 1:4 mix / fuel ratio. 22psi easily do-able, timing is around 12° there. MATs drop about 20°F before slowly climbing again. Gonna stick to 20psi now, though, engines get expensive. System *was* an Aquamist, their pump didn't have the capacity, so went to a ShurFlo ag pump; feeds 2 x 0.8mm Aquamist jets @ 225psi - D/C of pump is around 30% there, so there's plenty of capacity. Aquamist 'High-Speed' valve synch's injection w/ the fuel injectors, so there's no sudden onset or variation in mix / fuel ratio. I like it.
Put together a propane thing, though; its to chill the injection mix. Lowers it to around -40°F; some Brits claimed it was very good for ETs - dunno yet, we shall see. Just replaced my 40# injectors w/ 50# units; gotta start chipping those all over again - big differences in linearity. So cold out now, though, at least MATs aren't a problem...... If you inject propane vapor, MATs not gonna change much; inject liquid, though - that stuff is -50°F or so.
Barry - Sy#26 - but, hey, I'm no expert.....
Bangor, MI
Propane or meth/water
My goal has been the same as Brian's - max performance w/o any special prep - race gas, etc. Been running 1:1 methanol/water @ 1:4 mix / fuel ratio. 22psi easily do-able, timing is around 12° there. MATs drop about 20°F before slowly climbing again. Gonna stick to 20psi now, though, engines get expensive. System *was* an Aquamist, their pump didn't have the capacity, so went to a ShurFlo ag pump; feeds 2 x 0.8mm Aquamist jets @ 225psi - D/C of pump is around 30% there, so there's plenty of capacity. Aquamist 'High-Speed' valve synch's injection w/ the fuel injectors, so there's no sudden onset or variation in mix / fuel ratio. I like it.
Put together a propane thing, though; its to chill the injection mix. Lowers it to around -40°F; some Brits claimed it was very good for ETs - dunno yet, we shall see. Just replaced my 40# injectors w/ 50# units; gotta start chipping those all over again - big differences in linearity. So cold out now, though, at least MATs aren't a problem...... If you inject propane vapor, MATs not gonna change much; inject liquid, though - that stuff is -50°F or so.
Barry - Sy#26 - but, hey, I'm no expert.....
Bangor, MI
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smeagol said:
Just to clarify:
Our Kit DOES NOT run High pressure Propane lines from the tank to the Engine compartment. This is due to safety. In the event of an accident, if the line gets cut, no matter if it's Braid or rubber fuel hose, it would empty the entire tank out. This was of great concern to us. Other kits do have this line FULL pressure like Nitrous from tank to Engine compartment 100% of the time. We did't like that idea since it is Fuel. We view this as a big safety risk. We have our solenoid AT THE TANK. There is only propane in the line from tank to Engine under boost conditions. All other times (off boost) it is emtpy/not pressurized. Since this is the case we feel some may want a more affordable kit and use a 250PSI High Fuel/Oil resistant Goodyear Fuel Line which is more than suiteable for the 85psi propane that runs thru it.
Also, our parts are NOT off the shelf. They are built/machined specifically for us for this application. The Regulator is a Very High Flow Pound to Pound High capacity unit. This is very expensive. It is very stable and built specifically for High flow Propane use. True it its only capable of adjusting to 100psi but our units work great at 85psi. This is why we chose this unit. Remember: Under 70f tank temp pressure drops below 100psi. At 60F tank temp the tank pressure is 93psi. At 50F it is 78psi. So unless you want to use a bottle heater (most don't like that idea on a Propane tank and we don't either) any regulator capable of OVER 100psi is kinda a mute point. You will notice that Our reg is kinda big. It is An Industrial Reg. Nothing you will find off the shelf anywhere.
I am not sure what Solenoid other kits use. Ours is only the best. Built Specifically for LPG (propane) Capable of 312psi with only 1 amp MAX useage. It is very fast and responsive. Of course it does not pulse like the other kit. But That may wear on the solenoid.
Just setting straight any misconceptions. Not saying the other kit is bad or that we are better. Jays kit is actually kinda kool. For the money we have a great product and so does he.
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We have also just added this option which we don't think anyone else offers.
Low Propane Early Warning System (EWS)
The only Propane Injection system that has this option. Worried about hitting boost and running out of propane? This is a valid concern. Your vehicle is tuned and ready to hit 20psi when you run out of propane. You don't know you have run out and run your vehicle hard under a lean condition. Very Bad. Well, NOT ANY MORE!
We have developed the Low Propane Early Warning System. With this option you will have a Bright Red Flashing LED on the dash. It will Start flashing the moment your Propane tank drops below a preset pressure setting warning you that your tank is getting low. It will also warn you if you forget to turn your tank on. This will allow you to run Propane without having to worry if your tank is low.
This option is $50 and money well spent.
Low Propane Early Warning System (EWS)
The only Propane Injection system that has this option. Worried about hitting boost and running out of propane? This is a valid concern. Your vehicle is tuned and ready to hit 20psi when you run out of propane. You don't know you have run out and run your vehicle hard under a lean condition. Very Bad. Well, NOT ANY MORE!
We have developed the Low Propane Early Warning System. With this option you will have a Bright Red Flashing LED on the dash. It will Start flashing the moment your Propane tank drops below a preset pressure setting warning you that your tank is getting low. It will also warn you if you forget to turn your tank on. This will allow you to run Propane without having to worry if your tank is low.
This option is $50 and money well spent.
The low tank pressure light sounds nifty.
Just to clear up things, the OGS kit doesn't run a full pressurized line up front either, as the solenoid is mounted at the tank. The issue I brought up was the rubber hose ran all the way up front as the supply line.
I run a heater since I'm tuning a bit in the cold. It's already been in the 30s, and as long as the roads are dry, I'll be fiddling with it. I'd like to keep a constant bottle pressure for tuning, to keep things consistent. I don't want to run 50-60psi of propane pressure for tuning, and come spring expect the same tune to be operating fine at 100psi of propane pressure.
Just to clear up things, the OGS kit doesn't run a full pressurized line up front either, as the solenoid is mounted at the tank. The issue I brought up was the rubber hose ran all the way up front as the supply line.
I run a heater since I'm tuning a bit in the cold. It's already been in the 30s, and as long as the roads are dry, I'll be fiddling with it. I'd like to keep a constant bottle pressure for tuning, to keep things consistent. I don't want to run 50-60psi of propane pressure for tuning, and come spring expect the same tune to be operating fine at 100psi of propane pressure.
An LS1 guy running a supercharger installed propane on his Fbody, dropped his AFR 1.2 points (from 11.5:1 to 10.3:1). He's running an FJO wb02 full time.
Just an FYI for the guys following this.
I changed my ignition around to try and combat the random knock retard that I saw, and am waiting for dry pavement to do some more testing.
Just an FYI for the guys following this.
I changed my ignition around to try and combat the random knock retard that I saw, and am waiting for dry pavement to do some more testing.
leroy
Donating Member
I'm thinking run 50-60 psi year round. (As long as it's warm enough to get that pressure.) You don't have to mess with a bottle heater that way. We've tried a few different adjustments on the flow valve, but haven't figured out anything conclusive.
We still haven't got to experiment much, since the tranny problem popped up.
Jim
We still haven't got to experiment much, since the tranny problem popped up.
Jim
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Our system runs great at 85psi. Since ours does not use jets but an adjustable 6 turn needle valve it is a bit easier and quicker to adjust.
We run ours at 85psi and so far down to 40F the tank is holding around that if not maybe 75-80 which is not a big enuf change to change tuning. She gets some sun in the rear hatch. To have a system that can run 150, 200 or anything over 100 really is of no help since most of the country gets too cold to hold that pressure.
We run ours at 85psi and so far down to 40F the tank is holding around that if not maybe 75-80 which is not a big enuf change to change tuning. She gets some sun in the rear hatch. To have a system that can run 150, 200 or anything over 100 really is of no help since most of the country gets too cold to hold that pressure.
Lynn D. Brown
New member
Propane Inj.- Knock Sensor
Propane Inj.- Knock Sensor
Brian,
So do U think U have a design for a Knock light that is properly
"filtered" (?) and would work on the SyTy's ? Lotsa guys would
like one. May be a business opportunity for somebody ?
Propane Inj.- Knock Sensor
Brian,
So do U think U have a design for a Knock light that is properly
"filtered" (?) and would work on the SyTy's ? Lotsa guys would
like one. May be a business opportunity for somebody ?
If you are running the stock computer, you can build your own simple knock LED setup.
http://www.chitownsyty.com/tech/LED Knock indicator_files/slide0001.htm
http://www.chitownsyty.com/tech/LED Knock indicator_files/slide0001.htm
PPI Typhoon
DIY Madman
I have a question.
I'm assuming the nozzle goes post-turbo. And this uses a switch to come on under boost levels. What kind of line pressure is feeding the propane after the regulator?? You'd think it would be actually inverse of what would be wanted since lets say you have (just throwing a number out) 50 psi after the regulator........at 15 psi of boost.....that leaves you with a net of 35 lbs of pressure for the propane. But lets say you run 25 psi of boost, then when you actually would want MORE propane......you're actually getting less with only a 25 psi net feed.
How does either kit combat this (if any)? What kind of line pressure is coming out after the regulator??
Thanks.....I'm just thinking things through here. Pardon if I'm way off base.
I'm assuming the nozzle goes post-turbo. And this uses a switch to come on under boost levels. What kind of line pressure is feeding the propane after the regulator?? You'd think it would be actually inverse of what would be wanted since lets say you have (just throwing a number out) 50 psi after the regulator........at 15 psi of boost.....that leaves you with a net of 35 lbs of pressure for the propane. But lets say you run 25 psi of boost, then when you actually would want MORE propane......you're actually getting less with only a 25 psi net feed.
How does either kit combat this (if any)? What kind of line pressure is coming out after the regulator??
Thanks.....I'm just thinking things through here. Pardon if I'm way off base.
PPI Typhoon
DIY Madman
smeagol said:
Ok, so the pressure is actually really high, so it does decrease with boost technically, but only marginally when you look at it in relative terms.
Thanks