Help with Syclone turbo probs pls?

[syowners friend]

I am close to a guy who bought a sub-50k mile Syclone who wished he had your buyers guide before he bought. But also got it as a "project" so no biggie.
Anyway, it don't boost up past the first graduation ever at WOT. I told him to inspect closely for leaks in the turbo plumbing on both sides, exhaust and intake. But that the likely culprit was the turbo itself, probably due to neglect.
What should he do to isolate the problem?
I had great luck with an 88 turbo Sunbird by using Mobile 1 exclusively and being pretty consistant with the idle at cooldown before turning off (prob averaged 90 sec to 2 min). Is that what these motors like too?
And finally, if it is the turbo, what can he expect to pay for a replacement? Stock? Lightly upgraded?

 

[KGB Pilot125]

guess I can post up this

check out the FAQ on the left side of the site.

also are there any mods done to this truck?

 

[syowners friend]

Well, the new FAQ appears a little incomplete as it relates to my question, and I also scrounged the old site for more. I'll keep diging. Yes, I could be missing something obvious. If so, flame me briefly, and then kindly direct me too it :0

This vehicle was sold as both relatively low milage and stock. It indeed appears to not be obviously modded.

And sorry I submitted a little prematurely before. Wanted to say how much I dig SyTys and hope to buy one someday (maybe 2002).

Also thanks in advance for assistance.

Sean
1994 stock Z28 who is smart enough not to take on SyTys at stoplights hehe.

 

[Richard Le]

Is he reading boost from the factory boost gauge? The stock gauge is inaccurate. Plus, if the truck has a 3-bar chip in it, then the stock boost gauge will be way off.

 

[syowners friend]

Hi Richard,

Yes, it is from the stock guage, but the truck is definately not making the power they are known for. In fact, he says it is a little slower that his 1996 V8 Grand Cherokee(like 8-9 secs to 60). We all know that aint right :smile:

How would he identify the chip you are inquirering about? Although I am pretty sure it is actually stock.

Thanks again
Sean

 

[JustBeachin]

Nobody mentioned this yet.....check for vacuum leaks.

 

[KGB Pilot125]

you definatly need a scan tool. check out datamaster its http://www.ttspowersystems.com
and a cable can be had from well I cant find the link but Tookycat has it.

also check out the readme, sorry if you already have I should have includded that in the original message.

Is it throwing any codes?

Do you know the number of the chip in it if it is indeed stock?

you should check out the stock turbo to intercooler hose those have been known to crack. go down to the local auto parts and take the old and just match it up to a radiator hose.

 

[syowners friend]

Well, I have an AutoXray I use for the Z, but there are no constant or previously stored codes. Which engine parameters exactly would you like us to monitor? Knock detection? Ignition timing? Retard?

I will ask him to check the number on the chip too.

Thanks KGB, we'll help him get the bottom of this.

Sean

 

[KGB Pilot125]

well to start with I would look for timing and knock stuff on the scan tool. Especially Knock retard or KR. the other parameters I dont know as I too am still learning. :grin:

Doh check out the little lines that run to the wastgate its a little black box right by the turbo they are hard plastic lines and rubber elbows. this could be affecting the boost if they are broken or cracked. also check wastegate duty cycle on the scantool.

ATTN SYTY GURUS if I get any of this stuff wrong please chime in. the last time somebody asked for advice I chimed in and helped him but nobody else did so i am hoping it was right.

 

[GM TURBO]

As far as the FAQ not relating to your problem - I think you are wrong. The FAQ could be the exact reason why it is taking so long for the truck to make it to speed. Now, I would venture a guess to say it is vacuum related but there are a crapload other things it could be. If your turbo to IC hose was torn - you would know it. I lost one on the way to the Nationals and it was LOUD. I had no boost. The trans shifted funny. Try keeping up with 3 other Tys in conditions like this. It could be IC to TB - again should be loud. Boost solenoid is a good place to start. Could be clogged cat. Could be fried turbo. Could be a lot of knock that is doing this. I haven't heard of a truck knocking so bad that it didn't get ANY boost - but anything is possible. Do you hear any turbo whine? I would say go through the FAQ before you do many more 0-60 runs as it COULD be your last. It sure would suck to have a new truck that wouldn't make it to 60 because it doesn't run.

_________________
Dave
93 Ty #465 - Once was lost, but now is found.
White/White

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: GM TURBO on 2001-12-11 18:07 ]</font>

 

[syowners friend]

Very interesting Dave thanks!

http://syty.net/new_faq.htm
I did study the FAQ suggested by KGB and will repeat what I said. Flame me for be stupid, blind, or both, but at least point to ONE section in that FAQ that will get me closer to an answer. I think you may be thinking of the OLD driveability checklist, which he has been going through starting yesterday (but I have no update).

I am familar with losing boost through the turbo plumbing and as I said in my first post that was the first place I sent him for diagnostics. But he also did mention that the tranny was shifting crazy. I'll tell him to d-check that one.

I will let you all know the Autoxray results ASAP, but a 9 sec 0-60 sounds like a good running 4.3 without any boost, and I doubt there is severe knock related retard without any codes whatsoever.

I think you might be on the right track with a vacuum leak, so I'll also get the guage and check that according to the drivability checklist.

Thanks again Dave I'll keep you up to date.

Sean

 

[JoeLutz]

Turn on the ignition WITHOUT cranking the engine and look at the position of the stock boost gauge. It should be in the very middle, since there is no vaccum because the engine is not running. If it is in the lower half, then you probably got a 3bar chip and map sensor, or the gauge could just be screwed.

Quick and dirty check of the turbo: Pull the air intake hose loose from the front side of the turbo. See if the bladed compressor wheel spins easily. Also wiggle it to see how much play is in the bearings. you want to see if it is worn so badly that the compressor wheel is rubbing or catching on the inside of the housing, keeping it from spinning.

Hope this helps.

 

[Daron]

On 2001-12-11 19:17, syowners friend wrote:
Very interesting Dave thanks!

http://syty.net/new_faq.htm
I did study the FAQ suggested by KGB and will repeat what I said. Flame me for be stupid, blind, or both, but at least point to ONE section in that FAQ that will get me closer to an answer. I think you may be thinking of the OLD driveability checklist, which he has been going through starting yesterday (but I have no update).

Actually the faq is there for a reason. There are more than a few area's addressed there that could be causing your problems. Cap/rotor, wires, fuel filter to name a few. The reason it is suggested you address the obvious and most common failure points is so you can eliminate them as a cause for your malody. So, the whole faq applies to your pals situation. Buying a new ride that is 10 years old,and not going thru the ignition, fuel and cooling systems is an invitation for some frustrating times.

I am familar with losing boost through the turbo plumbing and as I said in my first post that was the first place I sent him for diagnostics. But he also did mention that the tranny was shifting crazy. I'll tell him to d-check that one.

Folks new to our trucks think it shifts too hard, in some cases. Adjust the TV adjustment as stated on http://www.sportmachines.com.

I will let you all know the Autoxray results ASAP, but a 9 sec 0-60 sounds like a good running 4.3 without any boost, and I doubt there is severe knock related retard without any codes whatsoever.

This is where your assumptions will get the best of your troubleshooting efforts. Our trucks have the ability to remove timing and boost when it detects knock. That truck could be knocking like a big dog and you'd never here it, since the ECM has retarded performance so that it reduces the knock. You will only actually hear knock in our trucks if it is knocking so bad it is beyond the ability of the ecm to control.

I think you might be on the right track with a vacuum leak, so I'll also get the guage and check that according to the drivability checklist.

Don't waste your time testing the lines. If they havent been replaced by now, go ahead and do it. New vacuum elbos and some tie straps are cheap and easy. I think the faq mentions this?
Moral of the story is to go thru the ignition, fuel, vacuum, IC and other suggested sytems. Until you get these systems in a known "good" state, troubleshooting will be pissing in the wind. It is also likely the problem will be repaired once this is done.
Good luck,

 

[syowners friend]

Way cool feedback, thanks to all!

Just to be correct, you are refering to the Readme and not the FAQ right?

Plugs, wires, cap, and rotor appear to have been part of a pre-sale tune-up. He does not have a piston stop, so the correct timing that he is observing may not be guarenteed. He will buy a stop in the next day or two.I still can't get over to his place with the auto-xray yet, but it's possible that the prev. owner was hip to this place because the IC lines are not solid. BTW, There is no blow-by according to the old Buyer checklist.

I am familar with how modern computer controlled cars "listen" for knock and retard the timing accordingly (I do all work on my 130,000 mile 1994 Z28). Auto xray should tell us whats is going on here, if anything.

Funny you mentioned it joeelutz, cause I just got off the phone with the guy, and we both concluded that he could probably see and even turn the impellor in the turbo if the pipe was removed. This is being checked as I type.

Lastly, I think tommorow he is going to try to get in on that GP of vacuum line kits.

Thanks again for helping us on this, my Pops (yeah it's my Dad i'm refering too here) can't wait to get his machine running right!

Later
Sean

 

[Tooky]

I agree with Daron, it's my opinion that when purchasing a used Syclone from a previous owner, there's absolutely no telling what type of condition the motor might be in until you really diagnose it with a scan tool and you gotta do the ignition/tuneup stuff anyways to be sure. The truck could have the wrong spark plugs, that would make a huge difference. When the ECM sees severely bad knock retard (like most used Syclones experience, in my opinion), it will reduce the boost as low as possible and the truck feels doggy. So make sure to check everything the Readme even if it doesn't relate to your current problem because it can also fix future problems too!