Having trouble getting TCC Lockup

[Tooky]

Hi Guys, I had a 700-R4 transmission fully built by a shop out of state, I put it in and the builder misinterpreted what I wanted and he hard-grounded the TCC Solenoid and when I went for a test drive my new Converter locked 100% of the time in any gear but 1st. It felt like the motor was going to choke, about 900-1100 RPM cruising 12MPH. I had to drive around with my foot riding the brake to get it to unlock.

The transmission ended up needing to be redone, there were some errors in the build, so I sent it back to him and he switched valve bodys and took it apart to check everything and put it back together in the same case. He installed no TCC wiring this time and left me on my own. :roll: After studying GM manuals and discovering there was at least 9 different TCC wiring circuits for 700R4s in 1991 alone, not to mention a different one for each of the 1LHM, 2LHM, and 3LHM 91-93 SyTy trannys, I decided to stick with the 91 Syclone wiring.

I transferred my original known-good solenoid from my stock tranny and the pressure switches and got NO lockup whatsoever. Long story short, I've spent the last 3-4 weeks trying to figure this out and have had zero success. I have a hard wire ALDL A-F TCC Lockup Switch that I used with 100% success on my stock transmission on this truck, but it has no effect with this 2nd transmission. It seems like NOTHING will make it lock. I bought a new GM solenoid and tried that; no lockup. I tried shorting the 2 red wires going to the 4-3 Pressure Switch to take it out of the loop and still no lockup. I ran a test-lamp between one of the red wires and the tranny case with the Ignition turned on and I recieved power. So Positive power is making it inside the tranny case and the case connector doesn't seem bad..

Any ideas?? Obviously since the converter locked "full time" on the first trans, this converter is capable of locking. And since riding my foot on the brake unlocked it, I would assume my brake switch is working fine. I only put on 30 miles on the first transmission so it would seem unlikely the brake switch failed in that period of time. I feel like I ruled out everything but there must be more to it. I actually have my pan down and I'm pulling the valve body for the first time tonight in an attempt to engineer a solution for a different problem this builder left me with. Is there anything relating to the TCC in there? Looking at the front of my ORIGINAL valve body (the part pointing towards the engine), the "valves" went like this. BLANK, small, small, BLANK LARGE LARGE LARGE (My understanding is the two small ones are MTV UP/DOWN, and the last three are the 3-4, the 2-3, and the 1-2.) The valve body I CURRENTLY have on this 2nd transmission goes like this. LARGE, small, small, LARGE LARGE LARGE LARGE. I read something that extra one present on my new valve body may pertain to "manual non-computer controlled TCC Lockup". Is there anything in there I can look at?

100 Points awarded to anyone who can solve this!

PS: I did try searching and the best post I found was by Wes but it sounded like the new TCC solenoid and a fluid & filter change fixed it for him. I haven't been so lucky

 

[skata]

Re: Having trouble getting TCC Lockup

who built your trans? did they rebuild your original trans or a core?
where is your original valvebody?

did you try putting voltage directly to the tcc solenoid? if you did and nothing happened, then you have internal problems.

 

[jwaller]

Re: Having trouble getting TCC Lockup

I suggest hard wiring the TCC solinoid like I do on all my builds. simply run 12V to the solinoid and the neg(returning leg) runs into the switch you want to use to lock it, or the wiring that exists on your truck as is. this way you have no chance that a pressure switch or anything else will foul up your lockup. its the way tci does it on all their retro units(but they use a vacume switch with a hose from the intake)

if this doesnt work, you may be stuck with the old ass vb thats installed on your trans.(doesn't use the elec lockup that we use) it's controlled by springs and valves hydralically.

 

[Tooky]

Re: Having trouble getting TCC Lockup

who built your trans? did they rebuild your original trans or a core?
where is your original valvebody?

A shop I unfortunately can't name at the moment. I wouldn't let my original 1LHM VIN #0044 trans out of my sight, and my valve body will leave my possession when someone pries it out of my cold, dead hands. So I told them up front I would pay for a core and while I was told it would cost extra for a SyTy core, they provided a NON-SyTy core nonetheless. Supposed to be "the H.O. valvebody from the corvettes and Z28s, its the same casting as a SyTy". False... My original valvebody is in my garage right next to "theirs".

did you try putting voltage directly to the tcc solenoid? if you did and nothing happened, then you have internal problems.

The solenoids (both old an new) click when I give them power outside the truck. I didnt see a way (or a need) to do the same test in the truck. Last night I sat underneath with someone turning ignition on and flipping ALDL Lockup switch and I didn't hear anything and it didnt make an electromagnet effect like I'd suspect. I don't know if that's a valid test or not. Can you elaborate on "internal problems"?

I suggest hard wiring the TCC solinoid like I do on all my builds. simply run 12V to the solinoid and the neg(returning leg) runs into the switch you want to use to lock it, or the wiring that exists on your truck as is. this way you have no chance that a pressure switch or anything else will foul up your lockup. its the way tci does it on all their retro units(but they use a vacume switch with a hose from the intake)

if this doesnt work, you may be stuck with the old ass vb thats installed on your trans.(doesn't use the elec lockup that we use) it's controlled by springs and valves hydralically.

Why does GM have the pressure switches and 9 different circuits in 1 year alone if they serve no useful function? If I use your method and give it gas in 4th gear, will it have an unusually harsh kickdown due to TCC remaining locked? I did try bypassing the one pressure switch that does get used and it didn't help.

We don't know for sure that I have an "old ass VB" that's why I mentioned what valves I have. Do you know what the big one is on mine immediately next to the 3-4? (From right to left it goes, 1-2, 2-3, 3-4, Mystery Valve, MTV, MTV, Big pipe plug). When I pull the TCC Solenoid, lots of fluid drains out of the Mystery Valve hole... When the guy redid the tranny he switched from one non-SyTy H.O. valve body to a different one of the same thing. I took photos of but unfortunately don't have good side angles of the first one (which did lock up all the time.)

 

[dgoodhue]

Re: Having trouble getting TCC Lockup

If it was me, I would swap your original valve bodies, seperator plates and use the stock wiring. Remember thier are check balls to deal with on both side of the seperator plate.

I have a 700 out of a 92 Ty in my garage (its already been rebuilt once) that I am going to rebuild this core hopefully this year, it maybe the correct VB, but I am not going to take chance, I will be using my stock Sy VB in that core case.

 

[jwaller]

Re: Having trouble getting TCC Lockup

that mystery valve in the VB is the mechanical TCC lockup valve (thats the internal problems) I mentioned you'd run into with the old stuff. it's not very easy to get that valve to cooperate with your TCC strategy(thats prob why it's not workin the way you want it to).

 

[Tooky]

Re: Having trouble getting TCC Lockup

Do you know any place I can look to find the solution to this? If some tweaking a valve is all I have to do to get this thing to work it certainly would be a lot easier than going back to square one.

Here's a reference photo. I'm trying to figure out what I have but I can't get the sleeves out of the bores on this bullshit valvebody because the bores feel scored and there's no way to pry the sleeve out. On my stock tranny, the sleeves came right out smooth as silk.

 

[Tooky]

More clues

More clues

Alright guys, I'm hot on the trail and getting closer, I can feel it. Check out this page: http://ftech.hypermobile.pl/trans/website/index.cfm-pageID=2256.htm Due to the fact it seems I have the TCC Lineup (the 4th lineup), my guess is I have a Type 1 or Type 2 VB. I'm a bit baffled because I dont get lockup at any speed. I ran it up to the revlimiter in 3rd gear (no F*cking 3-4 @ WOT) and it never locked. You can easily tell on the highway that my converter never locks... The RPMs float freely with throttle input.

In my 4th lineup there is definitely a sleeve, a spring, a valve that rides inside the valve, and then the smaller valve at the end. I have photos at home I will post tonight.

According to that link I just posted,

Type 1 and Type 2 VB's can be used to replace a Type 3, but you MUST remove the TCC valve line up and install the 2 aluminum slugs in its place

What do you guys think? Does that make sense? Should I try finding the 2 aluminum slugs?

How about if I just get 1 slug, 1 slug to the face of the guy who #!($*#%'ed me over!! :banghead: :crazyeye: :1gun:

 

[dgoodhue]

Re: Having trouble getting TCC Lockup

My Corvette has the Type 2 Valve body, I don't have any electronic soldnoid beside 2 wires to the TCC and I don't have an Aux VB (tube that run down the VB)

 

[dgoodhue]

Re: Having trouble getting TCC Lockup

Looking at that page again, I actually have a Type 3 VB. I feel your pain on the tranny, my rebuilder on my Corvette's tranny screwed up a few things and somedays I just want to rip it out and drop kick it. Hence the reason I am rebuilding a tranny for my Sy.

 

[jwaller]

Re: Having trouble getting TCC Lockup

I had not had much experiance with the non ecm controlled TCC stuff but I did read a while back they guy cut 2 rings off of the stock TCC valves to get the lockup he wanted and left them alone for diesel setups. not what you wanted to hear,

but you also can't go and install the syty vb on your current trans bc they(cases) are different and it wont work. not to mention you dont have the aux vb(used to soften the shifts) and it will shift like a sledgehammer and your parts should soon be scattered if it worked at all.

 

[nightdiver]

Re: Having trouble getting TCC Lockup

The pressure valves can be deleted. They use these to prevent the shift shock with the TC locked. I got some pics if you want to see the wiring.

Now are you sure the small oring on the input shaft is still in one piece ?

With the TCC hot wired measure the voltage at the tranny connector. It should be 8-12V. You just have to be sure first that its not an electrical problem.
By the way , what kind of TC do you use ?

 

[Tooky]

Update

Update

In the interest of resolving this, the tranny builder has offered to pick up my valve body and either replace or modify it until it works properly with regards to part throttle shift MPH, 3-4 WOT upshift, and electronic TCC Lockup. I'll update this thread with further information when I have it.

I did not find pulling a valve body to be a clean or easy job for 1 man working on his back with jackstands in a garage. Very difficult to handle everything safely without dropping and preventing dirt/dust/fuzz from contaminating everything. :roll:

I did research the 1985 GM S Truck Unit Repair manual and it seems that GM has 2 aluminum slugs that will allow Computer TCC control on the old style valve body, as shown in the very middle of this image:

 

[jwaller]

Re: Having trouble getting TCC Lockup

I know this is old but I thought I'd throw this out for ya in case you still needed help.

http://www.bulkpart.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=2&Product_Code=S74741VH&Category_Code=4L60-700R4vbkits&Product_Count=18



[font=Arial, Helvetica] Lock-up delay valve package by Superiorfor 700-R4 [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica][size=-1] Quantity in Basket: none
Code: S74741VH
Price: $68.82
[/size][/font]



[font=Arial, Helvetica][size=-1]
[/size][/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica][size=-1] Superior # K017 .. The High Performance Superior Hydraulic Lock-up package allows you to engage the lock-up feature of your converter automatically-without the computer or switches. Comes with 5 custom calibrated springs to vary the lock-up point. Will replace the early lock-up valve and sleeve or replace the later no valve alluminum plug. As long as there is a bore in the valve body, this kit will work. [/size][/font]

 

[mrweelr]

Re: Having trouble getting TCC Lockup

Josh - any update on your tranny issues? How hard was it to swap the valve body? I've never done one of these before. Just want to know what to expect.

 

[jwaller]

Re: Having trouble getting TCC Lockup

vb is an easy swap once you've done it once. 4 or 5 checkballs depending on what yr model you have and some grease and it's easily done in an hour. if all your swapping is the vb then it's even easier.

 

[Tooky]

Re: Having trouble getting TCC Lockup

Update - believe it or not I got this 1985 tranny with no aux valve body to work and it's working really well so far. Probably 4000 miles on it and plenty of WOT. The lockup problem was a bitch. LONG story short, I ended up suspecting the wiring itself after checking everything out and could NOT find a smoking gun. It was just like my boost control in 2001 on that stock turbo for you really old SyTy guys like DGoodhue who remember the details. I ran a NEW wire from my TCC solenoid, up and out the DIPSTICK TUBE, out the hood, into my window, and to a switch in my hand on the seat. Just rigged up for a test drive. Drove it around and SHAAAAZAMM!! LOCKUP - For The Very First Time! The problem turned out to be the new black plastic TCC case connector receptacle on the driver's side of the tranny!!! It was VERY CLOSE to the original ugly tan plastic TCC connector, but there was a difference in the tiny plastic "keyways" that was so small you wouldn't notice unless I pointed it out. THAT turned out to be the whole problem! The connector was seating, but not 100% firm. When I tested it on jackstands, it always checked out. Soon as I got her on the road, it must have been rocking loose. What a nightmare, that took about a month to solve, between all the fixes I tried before finding the final problem.

I also had the "opportunity" to access my torque converter again after the 2-4 band sheared the anchor pin head off... So I researched, debated, and then pulled the input shaft check ball AND retainer out and IT WAS A WISE MOVE!! On my 2700 RPM Yank converter this was just the ticket to make the lockup firm like the stock converter used to be. It was not at ALL excessively harsh or anything unusual compared to the stock converter. At least for me. I didn't regret this choice for one second (although I sure was nervous when I pulled it out, knowing I would never pull the tranny/converter out a 4th time JUST to make the lockup a little softer..)

Here are my outstanding problems with this tranny:

Part throttle shifts are still about 3 MPH too early, and I can't seem to find any way to solve it. 3-4 is ESPECIALLY early at about 30 MPH, causes motor problems when it shifts that early/low at part throttle, the "workaround" is to NEVER drive in OD unless you're going above 45 MPH (very annoying; I can't even let someone drive my truck anymore unless I give them a list of instructions.) The problem is, if I adjust the 3-4 shift valve springs to be stiffer, my 3-4 at WOT is too late. Even as it is, it's about 200 RPM on the late side at WOT.

Also, can't seem to reduce ALL the WOT shift speeds any further without making the part throttle even worse (too soon).

 

[Typhoonracer]

Re: Having trouble getting TCC Lockup

HEY Josh!!

I remember metting you for lunch to look at that wastegate solenoid problem.....